Buriram Expats

Buriram Province - General Category => Isaan Thai Visa => Topic started by: dimple joe on November 21, 2012, 07:54:05 PM

Title: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dimple joe on November 21, 2012, 07:54:05 PM
Watch out for the latest rip off by the thieving gits at Kap Choeng Immigration.

Applied for renewal of my marriage visa on 26th September at Kap Choeng, it was due to expire 20th October - once documents are checked the application is sent to Bangkok for approval.

You are given a date to go back to get the stamp put in your passport - mine was 19th November - I went today (21st) and was told I must pay 2 days overstay at 500 Baht per day! even though my application had been approved and I now have a stamp up to 20th October 2013.......

Previously you had 7 days grace either way.

They would not listen to my arguments and insisted I must pay until I asked for a receipt.

The guy looked sheepish and said no need for receipt and after a while dashed off to speak with his boss. He came back and offered a 50% discount, but no receipt.

A pal with me had a similar problem but his "overstay" was 7 days - he got his fine reduced from 3500 to 2000 Baht.

We both felt like fighting some more but the buggers have all the power.

They'll lose in the long run because my usual tip on each visit is no bloody more - thieving bloody scum.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: davu on November 21, 2012, 08:07:43 PM
which guy? description please. The big guy? Was there yesterday and have to go tomorrow again.
Saw a guy paying 10 200 yesterday, which I found rather strange even though he was at fault.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: CO-CO on November 21, 2012, 08:08:50 PM
Thanks for sharing that DJ - it is good to be aware of what to expect.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: chudless on November 21, 2012, 08:29:41 PM
Watch out for the latest rip off by the thieving gits at Kap Choeng Immigration.

Applied for renewal of my marriage visa on 26th September at Kap Choeng, it was due to expire 20th October - once documents are checked the application is sent to Bangkok for approval.

You are given a date to go back to get the stamp put in your passport - mine was 19th November - I went today (21st) and was told I must pay 2 days overstay at 500 Baht per day! even though my application had been approved and I now have a stamp up to 20th October 2013.......

Previously you had 7 days grace either way.

They would not listen to my arguments and insisted I must pay until I asked for a receipt.

The guy looked sheepish and said no need for receipt and after a while dashed off to speak with his boss. He came back and offered a 50% discount, but no receipt.

A pal with me had a similar problem but his "overstay" was 7 days - he got his fine reduced from 3500 to 2000 Baht.

We both felt like fighting some more but the buggers have all the power.

They'll lose in the long run because my usual tip on each visit is no bloody more - thieving bloody scum.
Maybe if you had gone on the day you was told to go,there would not have been a problem.
500 Baht a day overstay is that such a big problem if your in the wrong,if you don't like the rules you can always leave.
What gives you the right to call anyone thieving scum.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dundeemk6 on November 21, 2012, 08:36:19 PM
What I cannot understand is the plain stupity of the foreingers : I've been living here since 2003 and I NEVER had any problem. Why do people wait for the last possible moment or even gp to late to the immigration office ... in my opinion : som nam na ... if you even cannot keep in mind when your 90 day report is due then you derserve the fines and the hassle ... you give the foreign community a bad reputation.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: chudless on November 21, 2012, 08:37:35 PM
 bravo1
What I cannot understand is the plain stupity of the foreingers : I've been living here since 2003 and I NEVER had any problem. Why do people wait for the last possible moment or even gp to late to the immigration office ... in my opinion : som nam na ... if you even cannot keep in mind when your 90 day report is due then you derserve the fines and the hassle ... you give the foreign community a bad reputation.
bravo1
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dundeemk6 on November 21, 2012, 08:50:05 PM
And then I forgot to mention the people that come in the immigrtation office laden with gifts and theemoney for the officers !!!! You create corruption that way, once you give you have to give for ever ...
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dimple joe on November 21, 2012, 09:16:46 PM
which guy? description please. The big guy? Was there yesterday and have to go tomorrow again.
Saw a guy paying 10 200 yesterday, which I found rather strange even though he was at fault.

Tall thin guy, normally a nice bloke.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dimple joe on November 21, 2012, 09:20:39 PM
Maybe if you had gone on the day you was told to go,there would not have been a problem.
500 Baht a day overstay is that such a big problem if your in the wrong,if you don't like the rules you can always leave.
What gives you the right to call anyone thieving scum.

I hadn't overstayed, my visa renewal was valid on 20th October.......

If I had been in the wrong they would have given a receipt and taken the full amount.......

They are thieving scum.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dimple joe on November 21, 2012, 09:23:32 PM
What I cannot understand is the plain stupity of the foreingers : I've been living here since 2003 and I NEVER had any problem. Why do people wait for the last possible moment or even gp to late to the immigration office ... in my opinion : som nam na ... if you even cannot keep in mind when your 90 day report is due then you derserve the fines and the hassle ... you give the foreign community a bad reputation.

I cannot understand the plain stupidity of people who cannot read a post before commenting - where did 90 day report come from?

If I had been in the wrong they would have given a receipt and taken the full amount.......

They are thieving scum.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dundeemk6 on November 21, 2012, 09:29:00 PM
Dimple Joe : 90 day report or extention of a marriage visa or an extention of a retirement visa, it is all the same : when you are overdue you have to pay ... and off course they have  this 7 day "waver" but they will try to get some teemoney from you. Just don't play their game and be in time so you will have never any problem in the future.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Alan on November 21, 2012, 11:37:03 PM
Give um hell DJ  oldmanwithstick buttslap  :D
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Prakhonchai Nick on November 22, 2012, 04:06:00 AM
2 wrongs don't make a right!

Dimple Joe admits he returned 2 days late to collect his stamp, and Immigration saw this as an opportunity to extract cash from him.

TIT. Authorities will always try and extract money from the farangs. Everyone, other than newbies - who very quickly learn - know this.

Put it down to experience, and be on time in future.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: chudless on November 22, 2012, 07:38:31 AM
Maybe if you had gone on the day you was told to go,there would not have been a problem.
500 Baht a day overstay is that such a big problem if your in the wrong,if you don't like the rules you can always leave.
What gives you the right to call anyone thieving scum.

I hadn't overstayed, my visa renewal was valid on 20th October.......

If I had been in the wrong they would have given a receipt and taken the full amount.......

They are thieving scum.
What gives you the right to call someone scum just because you messed up.
If you had gone to the office on the correct day there wouldn't have been a problem,and by your attitude it's hardly surprising you got fined with or without a receipt.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 22, 2012, 08:49:41 AM
Dimple Joe : 90 day report or extention of a marriage visa or an extention of a retirement visa, it is all the same : when you are overdue you have to pay ... and off course they have  this 7 day "waver" but they will try to get some teemoney from you. Just don't play their game and be in time so you will have never any problem in the future.

A 90 day report has a 7 day either way waiver..........Extensions of Marriage Visa/Retirement Visas do not have any after date waiver.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dundeemk6 on November 22, 2012, 09:00:59 AM
Thanks for setting me straight nookie  :)
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 22, 2012, 09:05:38 AM
Thanks for setting me straight nookie  :)
Who is the fat guy on your avitar???????????????????
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dundeemk6 on November 22, 2012, 09:29:03 AM
That's me 3  years ago ...  chairhit ... some of us don't even dare to post their own picture ?!?!?  :D
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 22, 2012, 09:31:46 AM
That's me 3  years ago ...  chairhit ... some of us don't even dare to post their own picture ?!?!?  :D
I don't have a camera with a 'wide angle'lens!!
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: gotlost on November 22, 2012, 10:54:07 AM
Dimple Joe : 90 day report or extention of a marriage visa or an extention of a retirement visa, it is all the same : when you are overdue you have to pay ... and off course they have  this 7 day "waver" but they will try to get some teemoney from you. Just don't play their game and be in time so you will have never any problem in the future.

A 90 day report has a 7 day either way waiver..........Extensions of Marriage Visa/Retirement Visas do not have any after date waiver.

Correct on the Marriage and retirement extension but the 90 day report is 15 days before and 7 days after.  This was changed about two years ago.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: rufusredtail on November 22, 2012, 01:00:25 PM
Just a note , i had overstay on a holiday in thailand , by 5 days , got hauled up at Suvarnabhumi airport, took me aside and wanted 2500 thb, 500 thb a day , and believe me you have to pay cash, no credit cards, they will escort you to an atm . Plus you get a stamp in your passport overstay, so on record with the police. steamingMad
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dimple joe on November 22, 2012, 01:15:54 PM
What gives you the right to call someone scum just because you messed up.
If you had gone to the office on the correct day there wouldn't have been a problem,and by your attitude it's hardly surprising you got fined with or without a receipt.

You seem to miss the point dear boy, are you sure you are not ItalianTony? or have you just taken over his job as devil's advocate?

The purpose of my post was to warn others.

They are thieving scum.

If I was guilty of overstay ( considering my application was a month early and my visa was granted on or before 20th October, I don't see how that is possible ) but if I was; by refusing to issue a receipt they were making sure they could pocket the fine rather than pass it to the appropriate authority - thieving.

If I was not guilty, they were refusing to issue a receipt because they did not want to give documentary evidence of their wrong doing - scum.

If you are in fact ItalianTony, I expect your next post will be to say I should have saved my money when younger and be rich like you....
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: chudless on November 22, 2012, 01:29:53 PM
What gives you the right to call someone scum just because you messed up.
If you had gone to the office on the correct day there wouldn't have been a problem,and by your attitude it's hardly surprising you got fined with or without a receipt.

You seem to miss the point dear boy, are you sure you are not ItalianTony? or have you just taken over his job as devil's advocate?

The purpose of my post was to warn others.

They are thieving scum.

If I was guilty of overstay ( considering my application was a month early and my visa was granted on or before 20th October, I don't see how that is possible ) but if I was; by refusing to issue a receipt they were making sure they could pocket the fine rather than pass it to the appropriate authority - thieving.

If I was not guilty, they were refusing to issue a receipt because they did not want to give documentary evidence of their wrong doing - scum.

If you are in fact ItalianTony, I expect your next post will be to say I should have saved my money when younger and be rich like you....
All i was saying is that if you had gone on the correct day you wouldn't of had a problem,i just don't see why you have to call people scum.
As for Italian Tony i have no idea who he is,i am not Italian i am British and proud.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Somnat on November 22, 2012, 04:25:38 PM
And you can add incompetent to your list as well DJ.

Recently went to KCI to transfer retirement extension into new passport.

After 3 mistakes with dates and incorrect stamps they finally got it right thumbup

Mind you, they had used up 3 and a half pages of my new passport to do it wildman

At one stage they changed me from a retirement extension to wife extension loco

The fee for this service is FREE. I was charged 500 Bht, and wait for it, NO receipt.

Cant wait until next February to do my next extension.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 22, 2012, 04:31:05 PM
What gives you the right to call someone scum just because you messed up.
If you had gone to the office on the correct day there wouldn't have been a problem,and by your attitude it's hardly surprising you got fined with or without a receipt.

You seem to miss the point dear boy, are you sure you are not ItalianTony? or have you just taken over his job as devil's advocate?

The purpose of my post was to warn others.

They are thieving scum.

If I was guilty of overstay ( considering my application was a month early and my visa was granted on or before 20th October, I don't see how that is possible ) but if I was; by refusing to issue a receipt they were making sure they could pocket the fine rather than pass it to the appropriate authority - thieving.

If I was not guilty, they were refusing to issue a receipt because they did not want to give documentary evidence of their wrong doing - scum.

If you are in fact ItalianTony, I expect your next post will be to say I should have saved my money when younger and be rich like you....
All i was saying is that if you had gone on the correct day you wouldn't of had a problem,i just don't see why you have to call people scum.
As for Italian Tony i have no idea who he is,i am not Italian i am British and proud.
o
IT is/was one of your best customers..........
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 22, 2012, 04:37:59 PM
Dimple Joe : 90 day report or extention of a marriage visa or an extention of a retirement visa, it is all the same : when you are overdue you have to pay ... and off course they have  this 7 day "waver" but they will try to get some teemoney from you. Just don't play their game and be in time so you will have never any problem in the future.

A 90 day report has a 7 day either way waiver..........Extensions of Marriage Visa/Retirement Visas do not have any after date waiver.

Correct on the Marriage and retirement extension but the 90 day report is 15 days before and 7 days after.  This was changed about two years ago.
 
As I understand it,The 15 day before was only brought in by Korat Immigration whwn they were doing the mobile service to Buriram & Surin,.If you actually go to an office the 7/7 still applies
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: davu on November 22, 2012, 06:45:03 PM
I paid  ฿500.- for  confirmation of address today, required for a driving license. That's ok but officially it is free and involved yet another trip to Crap Choeng.. I might prefer to pay a lawyer to accompany me next time and pay him the  ฿500. I have seen a few people being ripped there, I myself had the choice of going there 5 (FIVE) times because of being misinformed on the phone or paying tea money. I went 5 times.  I have the impression that nobody gets a marriage extension on the first try, idem retirement - I can understand that these guys in Immigration have seen everything and that we are on the receiving end of the actions of various crafty Farangs exploiting the system. One guy today had his fotos refused because they were the same as last year. I think you have to take it in and show respect without crawling. By the way, I was the only farang that was dressed in long trousers, long sleeved shirt and shoes, and in the end got through (at last) without problems. Turning up in shorts and flip flops and T-shirt when the officer has to wear his uniform may not be a good idea...?
 
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 22, 2012, 06:51:00 PM
If you did take along a lawyer you will be a 'marked' man forever
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Somnat on November 22, 2012, 06:51:29 PM
@ davu "I paid  ฿500.- for  confirmation of address today, required for a driving license."

This can be done at Police Station and the form they fill in is acceptable at the licensing office.

No cost, saves a trip to KCI as well.

They will probably ask nicely for a small donation though.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dundeemk6 on November 22, 2012, 07:11:28 PM
If you are staying 'permantly' here in the kingdom make sure you obtain a 'yellow tabian baan', if you are legally in the kingdom on a retirement or marriage visa it should be a piece of cake to get it in your local ampur  and then you are out of trouble for ever ...
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Somnat on November 22, 2012, 07:29:20 PM
If you are staying 'permantly' here in the kingdom make sure you obtain a 'yellow tabian baan', if you are legally in the kingdom on a retirement or marriage visa it should be a piece of cake to get it in your local ampur  and then you are out of trouble for ever ...

Great idea dundeemk6.

Just don't try to get one from the Buriram Salacan (?)

I tried a few years ago, had ALL the required paperwork, the "Head man" tried to hit me up for 6K Bht !!!

I tried for a discount to no avail. Possibly a change of staff now and worth another go.

I reckon he might have been an ex - immigration officer :)

Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: CO-CO on November 22, 2012, 08:02:45 PM
If you are staying 'permantly' here in the kingdom make sure you obtain a 'yellow tabian baan', if you are legally in the kingdom on a retirement or marriage visa it should be a piece of cake to get it in your local ampur  and then you are out of trouble for ever ...

I think less easy in Prakhonchai

I heard the Nai Ampur did not like Farangs...
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dimple joe on November 22, 2012, 08:08:50 PM
What does the yellow tabian baan do for you?
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Alan on November 22, 2012, 08:23:51 PM
@ davu "I paid  ฿500.- for  confirmation of address today, required for a driving license."

This can be done at Police Station and the form they fill in is acceptable at the licensing office.

No cost, saves a trip to KCI as well.

They will probably ask nicely for a small donation though.
Yes correct and about 200baht.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: davu on November 23, 2012, 06:05:37 AM
Yellow Tabien Baan: is currently used for identification, and is being gradually replaced by the Thai ID card. This card is what Thais only will be able to present at hospitals for 30฿treatment. Immigrants will get another card. not entitling them to this treatment as it is for Thais only in theory(despite many exceptions being made in the past).
I didn't know that about the police station, I was told Embassy or Immigration.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Nobby on November 23, 2012, 06:50:50 AM
If you have a work permit there is no need for a Cert of Residence (COR) and it may entitle you to govt health care.
Yellow House Book has no legal advantages with regard to ownership. It just stops the need for a COR in future. Thats all.

When I got mine it certainly was NOT easy to get but accept different places have different rules.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Prakhonchai Nick on November 23, 2012, 07:40:10 AM
Yellow Tabien Baan: is currently used for identification, and is being gradually replaced by the Thai ID card. This card is what Thais only will be able to present at hospitals for 30฿treatment. Immigrants will get another card. not entitling them to this treatment as it is for Thais only in theory(despite many exceptions being made in the past).
I didn't know that about the police station, I was told Embassy or Immigration.

Interesting comment re an ID card for farangs.

I am a permanent resident, and named in the blue house registration  book. Yet I have no ID card, and have to cart the residents permit and alien registration round with me whenever I need to prove who I am.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Starman on November 23, 2012, 08:07:11 AM
If you have a work permit there is no need for a Cert of Residence (COR) and it may entitle you to govt health care.
Yellow House Book has no legal advantages with regard to ownership. It just stops the need for a COR in future. Thats all.

When I got mine it certainly was NOT easy to get but accept different places have different rules.

A work permit does not entitle you to health care. However, if you work for Government Agency, schools included, you can join the Social Security Scheme. This equates to 5 percent of your salary, upto a maximum of 750baht a month. Your employer has to pay the same amount. If you leave the employment of a Government  Agency you have the right to continue payment as an individual. This amount is currently 432 a month. That entitles you to full health care at Government hospitals. When you are 55 you can reclaim every single baht you have ever paid into the system.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 23, 2012, 09:35:55 AM
And you can add incompetent to your list as well DJ.

Recently went to KCI to transfer retirement extension into new passport.

After 3 mistakes with dates and incorrect stamps they finally got it right thumbup

Mind you, they had used up 3 and a half pages of my new passport to do it wildman

At one stage they changed me from a retirement extension to wife extension loco

The fee for this service is FREE. I was charged 500 Bht, and wait for it, NO receipt.

Cant wait until next February to do my next extension.
Well you did get ripped off.........I recently did the same at Pattaya Immigration in Jomyien & its all on 1 page & was done for FREE with a smile
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Somnat on November 23, 2012, 10:40:47 AM
^ I didn't even get the smile :)
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Nobby on November 23, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
A work permit does not entitle you to health care. However, if you work for Government Agency, schools included, you can join the Social Security Scheme. This equates to 5 percent of your salary, upto a maximum of 750baht a month. Your employer has to pay the same amount. If you leave the employment of a Government  Agency you have the right to continue payment as an individual. This amount is currently 432 a month. That entitles you to full health care at Government hospitals. When you are 55 you can reclaim every single baht you have ever paid into the system.

Thanks for the info Ziggy. When after 55 do you stop paying then?
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Starman on November 23, 2012, 11:38:15 AM
A work permit does not entitle you to health care. However, if you work for Government Agency, schools included, you can join the Social Security Scheme. This equates to 5 percent of your salary, upto a maximum of 750baht a month. Your employer has to pay the same amount. If you leave the employment of a Government  Agency you have the right to continue payment as an individual. This amount is currently 432 a month. That entitles you to full health care at Government hospitals. When you are 55 you can reclaim every single baht you have ever paid into the system.

Thanks for the info Ziggy. When after 55 do you stop paying then?

You stop paying at 55. Then you collect your money.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: davu on November 23, 2012, 11:51:37 AM
If your wife works for a government institution, her immediate family is also covered bt the health scheme. Including you.
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: nookiebear on November 23, 2012, 12:09:27 PM
A work permit does not entitle you to health care. However, if you work for Government Agency, schools included, you can join the Social Security Scheme. This equates to 5 percent of your salary, upto a maximum of 750baht a month. Your employer has to pay the same amount. If you leave the employment of a Government  Agency you have the right to continue payment as an individual. This amount is currently 432 a month. That entitles you to full health care at Government hospitals. When you are 55 you can reclaim every single baht you have ever paid into the system.

Thanks for the info Ziggy. When after 55 do you stop paying then?

You stop paying at 55. Then you collect your money.
Not long to wait then Fatboy
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: Starman on November 23, 2012, 01:54:24 PM
If your wife works for a government institution, her immediate family is also covered bt the health scheme. Including you.

Different health scheme. That one is funded by the Government. You must pay the hospital bill first and then you can get a refund via your wifes salary. No money when you are 55.     
Title: Re: Warning - Kap Choeng Immigration latest marriage visa rip off
Post by: dornanjx on December 06, 2012, 07:43:16 PM
What gives you the right to call someone scum just because you messed up.
If you had gone to the office on the correct day there wouldn't have been a problem,and by your attitude it's hardly surprising you got fined with or without a receipt.

You seem to miss the point dear boy, are you sure you are not ItalianTony? or have you just taken over his job as devil's advocate?

The purpose of my post was to warn others.

They are thieving scum.

If I was guilty of overstay ( considering my application was a month early and my visa was granted on or before 20th October, I don't see how that is possible ) but if I was; by refusing to issue a receipt they were making sure they could pocket the fine rather than pass it to the appropriate authority - thieving.

If I was not guilty, they were refusing to issue a receipt because they did not want to give documentary evidence of their wrong doing - scum.

If you are in fact ItalianTony, I expect your next post will be to say I should have saved my money when younger and be rich like you....
All i was saying is that if you had gone on the correct day you wouldn't of had a problem,i just don't see why you have to call people scum.
As for Italian Tony i have no idea who he is,i am not Italian i am British and proud.
BRITISH and PROUD...some confusion here Alan..